Location: Casino Royale Comparison

Discussion: Book Club: Ch. 16-22Reported This is a featured thread

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joshiorio
joshiorio
Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 23 2009, 8:57 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 23 2009, 8:57 AM EST
So here we have it... the torture scene, and it's significantly different than in the film. For me, this is one of the most memorable scenes in both the book and in the film for different reasons. In the novel, Fleming focuses on Bond's mind and the toll that the torture is taking on it. This is confirmed in CH 20, where we see Bond deciding to retire from MI6 because of the thinking he's done as a result of the torture. In the film, Bond is defiant to the end, as the focus is on the destruction of his body. For me, this is a crucial difference that highlights the differences between the cinematic and literary Bonds. In the Book, Bond is broken by LeChiffre. I never get that sense in the movie. While he's being beaten, Bond is busy making witty comments. We don't see these comments in the novel. Bond is beaten, and then passes out. Rinse and repeat. He's beaten to the point where he's not able to draw enough moisture in his mouth to speak. Fleming tells us that Bond uses a number of mental strategies to survive the torture. In the film, we assume that Bond's survival is based more on his physical endurance.

In addition to the torture scene, we follow Bond through his recovery, his developing relationship with Vesper, and a philosophical conversation with mathis about good and evil. I really like these philosophical tangents that Fleming seems to take us on in each of the books, and it's something I miss in the movies. As Bond struggles with distinguishing between himself and LeChiffre along a moral continuum, we understand that Bond is not the "blunt instrument" that the cinematic M accuses him to be, but rather he's a conflicted, thoughtful character who struggles with the non-categorical nature of human existence and experience. Where do we see this Bond in the films?
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joshiorio
joshiorio
1. RE: Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 23 2009, 9:08 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 23 2009, 9:08 AM EST
Oh, and here's something else that stuck out for me: Vesper's been acting kinda weird since Bond beat LeChiffre at the Casino. She's silent during their victory dinner. She falls for a foolish trap. She's paranoid about a car that's following them in the country. Do we dismiss these occurrences as products of the stress that Vesper's been under, or do they serve some other purpose? Vesper's been up and down throughout the novel. She was upbeat when we first met her, but then after the game, she's down. She's upbeat when she's planning what they're going to do in Bond's hotel room, and then she's down on the way to the seaside getaway. How do we feel about Vesper at this point? Is she someone you could date, or is she too unpredictable with her moods? Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
2. RE: Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 24 2009, 10:47 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 24 2009, 10:47 AM EST
"Oh, and here's something else that stuck out for me: Vesper's been acting kinda weird since Bond beat LeChiffre at the Casino. She's silent during their victory dinner. She falls for a foolish trap. She's paranoid about a car that's following them in the country. Do we dismiss these occurrences as products of the stress that Vesper's been under, or do they serve some other purpose? Vesper's been up and down throughout the novel. She was upbeat when we first met her, but then after the game, she's down. She's upbeat when she's planning what they're going to do in Bond's hotel room, and then she's down on the way to the seaside getaway. How do we feel about Vesper at this point? Is she someone you could date, or is she too unpredictable with her moods? "
i dont know, but maybe there's more to it.......
lol
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JustinAtheropinion
3. RE: Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 24 2009, 7:07 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 24 2009, 7:07 PM EST
"So here we have it... the torture scene, and it's significantly different than in the film. For me, this is one of the most memorable scenes in both the book and in the film for different reasons. In the novel, Fleming focuses on Bond's mind and the toll that the torture is taking on it. This is confirmed in CH 20, where we see Bond deciding to retire from MI6 because of the thinking he's done as a result of the torture. In the film, Bond is defiant to the end, as the focus is on the destruction of his body. For me, this is a crucial difference that highlights the differences between the cinematic and literary Bonds. In the Book, Bond is broken by LeChiffre. I never get that sense in the movie. While he's being beaten, Bond is busy making witty comments. We don't see these comments in the novel. Bond is beaten, and then passes out. Rinse and repeat. He's beaten to the point where he's not able to draw enough moisture in his mouth to speak. Fleming tells us that Bond uses a number of mental strategies to survive the torture. In the film, we assume that Bond's survival is based more on his physical endurance.

In addition to the torture scene, we follow Bond through his recovery, his developing relationship with Vesper, and a philosophical conversation with mathis about good and evil. I really like these philosophical tangents that Fleming seems to take us on in each of the books, and it's something I miss in the movies. As Bond struggles with distinguishing between himself and LeChiffre along a moral continuum, we understand that Bond is not the "blunt instrument" that the cinematic M accuses him to be, but rather he's a conflicted, thoughtful character who struggles with the non-categorical nature of human existence and experience. Where do we see this Bond in the films?"
Bond suffers in the book from what we now call "Stockholm syndrome" where the victims empathize with their abusers. It's how Patty Hearst was turned by her terrorist kidnappers into joining them on their bank robberies. Bond quits, having lost his edge, and determined to get out of the duplicitous life and be more normal. Vesper is the hook he hangs that on. But his conversation with Mathis in the hospital, shows Bond at his most weak, troubled and confused. It will take a real tragedy for him to realize that he can't escape from that life; it will touch him, whether he participates or not.

Bond in the movie doesn't do that. Vesper has planted the seed that his job will cost him his very soul...and should he quit, he might be able hold on to his humanity and have some chance at happiness...a quantum of solace? He learns that it may be unachievable given how far he has gone.
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JustinAtheropinion
4. RE: Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 25 2009, 8:00 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 25 2009, 8:00 PM EST
Was anyone surprised by Bond's statement talking to Mathis--"In the past two years, I've only killed two villains"?

That means 1) he doesn't kill that often despite that license to kill, And one of those kills was a "clean" sniper rifle attack (he'll talk about it again in the series). Those two kills got him the "00" status (as per the movie). But his conversation takes on a philosophical tone. He says that (at the time the novel was wriiten) British Conservatism looks a lot like Communism did 50 years previous. So what is he fighting for?

We can see that today...what was Conservative awhile ago, may be liberal today and vice versa.
Thoughts?
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QuartermasterQ
QuartermasterQ
5. RE: Book Club: Ch. 16-22
Jan 26 2009, 3:01 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 26 2009, 3:01 PM EST
"We can see that today...what was Conservative awhile ago, may be liberal today and vice versa.
Thoughts?"
I'd say that every form of government has a least a little influence from every other one.
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