Location: Casino Royale Comparison

Discussion: Book Club: Ch 1-7Reported This is a featured thread

Showing 1 - 20 of 49  |  Show  posts at a time
2 3 | Next
joshiorio
joshiorio
Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 10:06 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 10:06 AM EST
The first sentence of Chapter 1 sets the stage for a different Bond than we're used to in the films. Fleming begins the novel by describing how casinos disgust Bond: "The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning." It could be the casino, or it could be the "seventieth cigarette" that Bond's smokes by the end of Chapter 1. We rarely see cases where the cinematic Bond is effected at all by his environment. Bond never shivers, he never has the sun in his eyes, he generally doesn't sweat, and he certainly doesn't take notice of the stench that emerges from casinos. Bond smokes occasionally in the early films... but 70 cigarettes a day... he's clearly not in control of his smoking habit.

In Chapter 6, we see a few more examples of Bond-as-human as opposed to Bond-as-superhero. During the hatted bomber scene, once the bombs go off prematurely, Bond gets back to his feet and vomits. After Mathis has collected him and he's back in his hotel room, Bond stares out the window "enjoying being alive". In these two scenes, we see Bond react physically to being in a stressful situation, and then we see him reflect back on his near-death experience.

In short, Bond struggles, both physically and emotionally with the sresses of his job. We see this kind of reflection during the film on Bond's yacht as he contemplates leaving MI6. The difference though is that he's thinking about leaving because of his love for Vesper, not because of the demands of the job. While Bond doesn't consider leaving MI6 here, we begin to understand that his character doubts, has weaknesses, and is a bit more complex that the cinematic portrayals.
1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Keyword tags: None (edit keyword tags)
koolkikij
koolkikij
1. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 11:17 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 11:17 AM EST
i do think its time that we confront our beloved bond on this dreadful smoking habit. wait, no. its an addiction, and its his time to quit. Do you find this valuable?    
moore4ever
moore4ever
2. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 12:15 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 12:15 PM EST
"i do think its time that we confront our beloved bond on this dreadful smoking habit. wait, no. its an addiction, and its his time to quit."
True, kick the habit Bond! lol
Do you find this valuable?    
joshiorio
joshiorio
3. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 12:58 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 12:58 PM EST
in an effort to keep these discussion on topic... when did Bond quit smoking in the films? He smokes like a champ up until the end in the novels. I'm pretty sure that Craig's Bond doesn't smoke. I don't really remember Brosnan smoking either. See if we can figure out when he quit, and lets explore why we think that the films, over time, increasingly left out this part of Bond's personality. It could have been because smoking became socially less acceptable, but it might also have been the trend in the films to transform Bond into something without flaws and without weaknesses. Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
4. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:02 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:02 PM EST
"It could have been because smoking became socially less acceptable"
thats what i think. as different states start to ban smoking (almost everywhere) it become less socially acceptable. plus, i think less people are smoking and as more people quit, the producers made bond quit.
Do you find this valuable?    
Cedric(006)
Cedric(006)
5. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:05 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:05 PM EST
Well, if Craig's Bond is the younger years, we can deduce that Bond picked up his smoking habbit in the later years, so that sugguest he started in Dr. No years and continued from their...... Do you find this valuable?    
joshiorio
joshiorio
6. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:21 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:21 PM EST
"thats what i think. as different states start to ban smoking (almost everywhere) it become less socially acceptable. plus, i think less people are smoking and as more people quit, the producers made bond quit."
Do we lose some part of Bond because he's not a smoker? When I think of Bond, I think of the guy who drinks too much (he actually gets drunk quite a bit in the novels), smokes too much, has too many women, but always makes sure that the job gets done. The cinematic Bond doesn't smoke anymore, we certainly never see him getting drunk, and the only time he sleeps with women is when he's using them to get some information.
Do you find this valuable?    
joshiorio
joshiorio
7. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:26 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:26 PM EST
"Well, if Craig's Bond is the younger years, we can deduce that Bond picked up his smoking habbit in the later years, so that sugguest he started in Dr. No years and continued from their......"
This brings up a good point... when comparing the films and novels, which timeline do we use? Most of the novels lead into each other, with references to previous encounters, situations, and characters. Most of the novels (except for the short story collections) really could be read as one work. Aside from a couple films (CR-QoS, TMWTGG-DAD), there's really no reason to watch one film before another. They're not really chronologically connected. The character development is based on the change in actors, not really on the content of the films.

This is an important question to think about because we're interested in exploring how Bond's character develops, and we can't really do that without some kind of timeline to use as a point of reference. Hmm...
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
8. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:28 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:28 PM EST
"Do we lose some part of Bond because he's not a smoker?"
we dont lose any part of bond because he's not a smoker. bond will always be bond, until he isnt. (i love paradoxes/contradictions,lol). but it seems that the studio is taking all the fun out of bond (his smoking, his drinking). and this is coming from a nonsmoker nondrinker. bond...bond is like a diamond. he is a multifaceted character. and when u take away some traits (like his dark hair, his smoking) he becomes less and less brilliant of a diamond. granted he still is a pretty large diamond, but is less brilliant.
Do you find this valuable?    
joshiorio
joshiorio
9. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:48 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:48 PM EST
"we dont lose any part of bond because he's not a smoker. bond will always be bond, until he isnt. (i love paradoxes/contradictions,lol). but it seems that the studio is taking all the fun out of bond (his smoking, his drinking). bond is like a diamond. and when u take away some traits (like his dark hair, his smoking) he becomes less and less brilliant of a diamond."
So at what point does the diamond become a hunk of carbon. Is a James Bond with blond hair, huge muscles, machine guns, non-smoker, and sober still James Bond? Which components of his personality are critical to his character, and which can be allowed to change over time. The LTK community pretty much unanimously decries a gay Bond or a black Bond, but we embrace the non-smoking, machine-gun toting death machine that he's become. Neither a gay Bond nor a run-and-gun Bond are anything like the original formulations (either in the novel or in the early movies), but clearly the community believes that Craig's Bond is preferable to a gay Bond.

In the first few chapters of the novel, we see that Bond is flawed. Many of these flaws have been erased in the movie, but new flaws have been introduced. We've already brought up some of the literary Bond's flaws... what are his flaws in the cinematic version of CR? How do the differences help to shape different notions of Bond's identity?
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
10. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 1:58 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 1:58 PM EST
"Many of these flaws have been erased in the movie, but new flaws have been introduced. We've already brought up some of the literary Bond's flaws... what are his flaws in the cinematic version of CR?"
well hes vulnerable, as i said earlier because he stupidly allowed himself to trust and to love vesper.well, i guess thats a flaw in both the movie and book.
Do you find this valuable?    

JustinAtheropinion
11. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 3:32 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 3:32 PM EST
Film-Bond "officially" stopped smoking in LTK--Dalton was a chain-smoker and thought Bond should smoke (he didn't say anything about Bond's benzedrine binges, but I digress and am getting ahead of the novels)--LTK actually has a surgeon general's warning in the Final Credits!

Brosnan's Bond didn't smoke--Brosnan's wife died of cancer and he's done a lot of work for the Cancer Society. And then, after making a big non-nicotine stink about it, his Bond smokes a cigar down in Cuba in DAD (because Brosnan likes cigars and has appeared on the cover of a cigar afficianado's magazine--this is one of the reasons I think Brosnan is a bit of an empty shirt). Craig's Bond doesn't smoke, although Craig does--I'd find it a bit incredible for Bond to do all those sprinting sequences with a diminished lung capacity!

The issue is impression. Every time Bond smokes a cigarette on-screen, it looks cool, and immediately destroys about a million dollars worth of anti-smoking PSA's in effectiveness. There has even been a call to slap any film that has smoking in it with an "R" rating (which I think ridiculous and slightly fascist--but hey, I see their point--I desperately wanted a cigarette during "Good Night and Good Luck!"

If Bond never smoked again, I'd be cool with it, for the damage it does to Society and my health insurance costs. The smoking is not what makes Bond Bond.
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
12. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 3:40 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 3:40 PM EST
"which I think ridiculous and slightly fascist--but hey, I see their point--I desperately wanted a cigarette during "Good Night and Good Luck!"

The smoking is not what makes Bond Bond."
1. hahaha, stupid fascists

2. that is what i've been trying to say with that analogy above with the diamond! the smoking is just a facet.

Do you find this valuable?    

JustinAtheropinion
13. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 3:42 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 3:42 PM EST
"well hes vulnerable, as i said earlier because he stupidly allowed himself to trust and to love vesper.well, i guess thats a flaw in both the movie and book."
This is not a flaw. It's character.

And it's a bit of an over-simplification to say that Bond wants to quit because he loves Vesper. She merely makes him think about what he does (which makes one wonder what the movie-Vesper's motivation...at that time...was. Unfortunately with QOS being so stingy with motivation, we'll never know--a lost opportunity)

No. Bond quits because he knows that the killing is destroying his soul and making him less of a human being. It's what's so brilliant about this screenplay. It's an issue that threads through the entire movie from "Made you feel it, did he?" through to the end. Bond quits (in the movie...we'll get to the novel presently where it's a bit more complicated) because he wants to get out while there is still a chance to enjoy his life--Vesper gives him that chance. He has seen a lot of death already...even before his "00" status...and knows the toll...he's looked in a lot of mirrors at his eyes after killing someone--looking for what, exactly? Some trace of a human being inside there?

That's why he quits. Like any good gambler, he'll quit while he's ahead, when there's still something of value to take away...before he loses it.

Fleming was brilliant. And I like the CR movie, too.
Do you find this valuable?    
joshiorio
joshiorio
14. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 3:45 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 3:45 PM EST
Why do you think Fleming made Bond *such* a smoker. 70 smokes by dinner... wakes up at 10 (i bet Bond likes to sleep in), dinner at 7... that's about 9 hours... which averages out to about 7.7 smokes an hour. at around 7 mins per smoke... he's pretty much constantly smoking.

I think it's clear that smoking was considered "hip" back in the 50s, but was it the case that more smoking (i.e. constantly) = more hip. Was fleming trying to make bond appear more "human" by giving him a vice or more "super-hipster" by making him a chain-smoker. Fleming could have said that Bond had smoked ten cigarettes, but he chose seventy. when i first read it, i read "seventeen". that's why it's always kinda stuck out for me. As a long time smoker, i'd certainly be long dead if i smoked 70 cigs before dinner. i'm bad off enough smoking a half a pack. fleming was a smoker, so he knew the effects. Why so many cigs for Bond?
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
15. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 3:48 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 3:48 PM EST
"Was fleming trying to make bond appear more "human" by giving him a vice or more "super-hipster" by making him a chain-smoker. "
i think its a little bit of both. he wanted to make bond cool (esp. so that he could make money from the books) and to make a secret agent seem human.
Do you find this valuable?    

JustinAtheropinion
16. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 4:24 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 4:24 PM EST
"i think its a little bit of both. he wanted to make bond cool (esp. so that he could make money from the books) and to make a secret agent seem human."
Smoking 70 cigarettes a day...that's what, 3 packs?...isn't cool. It's living in a black cloud of nicotine, a mouth that feels like 20 miles of dirt road and pretty much stinking all the time.

Bad habit. Really bad habit (God! I WANT one right now!)

It's a result of the times, especially post-WWII, where the interminable waiting for soldiers would have driven them nuts if they didn't have something to do like smoke...constantly Smoking's a good time waster, and habitual, especially if you're being sent free cigarettes, like the soldiers were. And the post-war era through the 50's was lived in a constant stream of cigarette smoke--this was before the health issues starting coming out in the early 60's--some of the tobacco companies' ad's talked about the smooth flavor and the rich taste and it was all so much lies---cigarettes don't relax you, they hop you up, restrict your blood vessels, coat your lungs (I REALLY want one!)

It shows a personality on edge and slightly out-of-control, in need of stimulation. But Bond would do worse things before a sortee.

And it's a completely different era now.
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
17. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 4:31 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 4:31 PM EST
"Smoking 70 cigarettes a day...that's what, 3 packs?...isn't cool. It's living in a black cloud of nicotine, a mouth that feels like 20 miles of dirt road and pretty much stinking all the time"
i know its not cool, thats y i dont smoke. but as u said, its a different era. smoking 70 a day is frowned upon now, but maybe it was different in the 50's.
Do you find this valuable?    

JustinAtheropinion
18. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 4:34 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 4:34 PM EST
"i know its not cool, thats y i dont smoke. but as u said, its a different era. smoking 70 a day is frowned upon now, but maybe it was different in the 50's."
It was still unusual to smoke THAT much, even though you could smoke anywhere...at work...in restaurants...in movie theaters. See what I mean about it being a different era?

Don't start. Don't ever start.
Do you find this valuable?    
koolkikij
koolkikij
19. RE: Book Club: Ch 1-7
Jan 3 2009, 4:40 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 3 2009, 4:40 PM EST
"Don't start. Don't ever start."
believe me i wont ever start. i find that when u have a very medical/biological mind (like myself), u tend to be more hazardous about what u do. (thats y i am germaphobic, i dont drink alcohol, dont smoke, dont believe in god, etc.)

i also see what u mean by another era. here in MI, theyre already stopping smoking in restaurants, even though theres no ban.
Do you find this valuable?    
2 3 | Next